| 阅读上一个主题 :: 阅读下一个主题 |
| 作者 |
留言 |
戴玨[Edgar]
戴玨作品集
五品知州
（再努力一把就是四品大员了！）
注册时间: 2006-12-26
帖子: 213
|
 发表于: 星期二 九月 02, 2008 11:28 am 发表主题: Crossing the Bar by Tennyson |
 |
|
跨越沙棱
阿佛列德·但尼生(1809–1892)
日落，晚星，
喚我的呼聲清澈！
但願我出海時，
沙棱不會嗚咽，
但這移動的汐潮像是睡了，
滿得既無泡沫也無聲響，
此時那來自無垠深海的
又一次掉頭還鄉。
薄暮，晚鐘，
之後便是黑暗！
但願我上船時，
不會有辭別的傷感；
雖然自我們的時空範圍
潮水會載我遠涉，
我希望跨過沙棱後
會面見我的領航者。
譯者按：
沙棱指沙灘上由風浪造成的條狀凸起的部分。
Crossing the Bar
Alfred, Lord Tennyson (1809–1892)
SUNSET and evening star,
And one clear call for me!
And may there be no moaning of the bar,
When I put out to sea,
But such a tide as moving seems asleep,
Too full for sound and foam,
When that which drew from out the boundless deep
Turns again home.
Twilight and evening bell,
And after that the dark!
And may there be no sadness of farewell,
When I embark;
For tho’ from out our bourne of Time and Place
The flood may bear me far,
I hope to see my Pilot face to face
When I have crossed the bar.
_________________
我的blog:
http://blog.sina.com.cn/u/1310527443 |
|
| 返回页首 |
|
 |
Lake[Lake]
Lake作品集
二品总督
（刚入二品，小心做人）
注册时间: 2006-10-10
帖子: 1341
来自: Sky Blue Water
|
| 发表于: 星期二 九月 02, 2008 12:40 pm 发表主题: |
|
|
| 慢慢学习欣赏。 |
|
| 返回页首 |
|
|
fanfan[FAFAFA]
fanfan作品集
四品府丞
（封疆大吏也！）
注册时间: 2007-12-27
帖子: 353
来自: Canada
|
| 发表于: 星期二 九月 02, 2008 9:58 pm 发表主题: Re: Crossing the Bar by Tennyson |
|
|
A good translation.
| 戴玨 写到: | 跨越沙棱
阿佛列德·但尼生(1809–1892)
日落，晚星，
喚我的呼聲清澈！
但願我出海時，
沙棱不會嗚咽，
但這移動的汐潮像是睡了，
滿得既無泡沫也無聲響，
此時那來自無垠深海的
又一次掉頭還鄉。
薄暮，晚鐘，
之後便是黑暗！
但願我上船時，
不會有辭別的傷感；
雖然自我們的時空範圍
潮水會載我遠涉，
我希望跨過沙棱後
會面見我的領航者。
譯者按：
沙棱指沙灘上由風浪造成的條狀凸起的部分。
|
My suggestion is as follows:
此時那來自無垠深海
又一次掉頭還鄉。
雖然自我們的時空範圍
潮水會載我遠涉
This translation is a little awkward
_________________
Don't imitate me;
it's as boring
as the two halves of a melon. |
|
| 返回页首 |
|
|
ericcoliu[ericcoliu]
ericcoliu作品集
二品总督
（刚入二品，小心做人）
注册时间: 2007-05-29
帖子: 1393
来自: GTA, Canada
|
| 发表于: 星期二 九月 02, 2008 10:23 pm 发表主题: Re: Crossing the Bar by Tennyson |
|
|
此時那來自無垠深海
又一次掉頭還鄉。
雖然自我們的時空範圍
潮水會載我遠涉
The Chinese translation of these lines is little awkward.
By the way, I think 沙渚 is better than 沙棱 (同稜，有高聳威嚴之意，請參辭海, pp. 573 and 792).
沙棱 is not a popular term used in everyday language and doesn’t appear in 辭海 while 沙渚 is a popular one and can spare you a translator’s note.
_________________
Time is nothing but a disquiet of the soul
最后进行编辑的是 ericcoliu on 星期六 九月 06, 2008 10:28 am, 总计第 2 次编辑 |
|
| 返回页首 |
|
|
Lake[Lake]
Lake作品集
二品总督
（刚入二品，小心做人）
注册时间: 2006-10-10
帖子: 1341
来自: Sky Blue Water
|
| 发表于: 星期三 九月 03, 2008 12:35 am 发表主题: |
|
|
| 引用: | 此時那來自無垠深海的
又一次掉頭還鄉。
When that which drew from out the boundless deep
Turns again home. |
这句读了几遍，如果不看英文，是不大好理解。
我想是否在“此時那來自無垠深海的”后面加上个名词，即把 'that'的所指还原，语义可能会清楚些。
对翻译没研究，随便说说。 |
|
| 返回页首 |
|
|
戴玨[Edgar]
戴玨作品集
五品知州
（再努力一把就是四品大员了！）
注册时间: 2006-12-26
帖子: 213
|
| 发表于: 星期三 九月 03, 2008 4:37 am 发表主题: |
|
|
| Lake 写到: | | 引用: | 此時那來自無垠深海的
又一次掉頭還鄉。
When that which drew from out the boundless deep
Turns again home. |
这句读了几遍，如果不看英文，是不大好理解。
我想是否在“此時那來自無垠深海的”后面加上个名词，即把 'that'的所指还原，语义可能会清楚些。
对翻译没研究，随便说说。 |
我本來翻成：
此時那來自無垠深海的浪
又一次掉頭還鄉。
但又覺得太specific，原文that究竟指什麽，并非十分清楚，所以後來去掉了。
_________________
我的blog:
http://blog.sina.com.cn/u/1310527443 |
|
| 返回页首 |
|
|
戴玨[Edgar]
戴玨作品集
五品知州
（再努力一把就是四品大员了！）
注册时间: 2006-12-26
帖子: 213
|
| 发表于: 星期三 九月 03, 2008 4:55 am 发表主题: Re: Crossing the Bar by Tennyson |
|
|
| ericcoliu 写到: | By the way, I think 沙渚 is better than 沙棱 (同稜，有高聳威嚴之意，請參辭海, pp. 573 and 792).
沙棱 is not a popular term used in everyday language and doesn’t appear in 辭海 while 沙渚 is a popular one and can spare you a translator’s note. |
沙棱確非常用詞，但比沙渚准確，沙渚和其他詞如沙汀，沙洲，沙灘等都是指水邊的平地，而sandbar其實是指這平地上的沙丘。宋林逋有詩句：“野煙含樹色，春浪迭沙棱。”
_________________
我的blog:
http://blog.sina.com.cn/u/1310527443 |
|
| 返回页首 |
|
|
ericcoliu[ericcoliu]
ericcoliu作品集
二品总督
（刚入二品，小心做人）
注册时间: 2007-05-29
帖子: 1393
来自: GTA, Canada
|
| 发表于: 星期四 九月 04, 2008 10:03 am 发表主题: Re: Crossing the Bar by Tennyson |
|
|
| 戴玨 写到: |
沙棱確非常用詞，但比沙渚准確，沙渚和其他詞如沙汀，沙洲，沙灘等都是指水邊的平地，而sandbar其實是指這平地上的沙丘。宋林逋有詩句：“野煙含樹色，春浪迭沙棱。” |
Yes, you're right. Thanks for sharing 宋林逋's 詩句.
| 戴玨 写到: |
| Lake 写到: | | 引用: | 此時那來自無垠深海的
又一次掉頭還鄉。
When that which drew from out the boundless deep
Turns again home. |
这句读了几遍，如果不看英文，是不大好理解。
我想是否在“此時那來自無垠深海的”后面加上个名词，即把 'that'的所指还原，语义可能会清楚些。
对翻译没研究，随便说说。 |
我本來翻成：
此時那來自無垠深海的浪
又一次掉頭還鄉。
但又覺得太specific，原文that究竟指什麽，并非十分清楚，所以後來去掉了。 |
Read in the contexts of his time (a time of social, technological, political and religious change) and his spiritual situation (the death of his friend, Arthur Hallam, and the evolution theory made him re-think his Christian beliefs), this poem is intended as a metaphor for “approaching death” from a Christian perspective.
It is made up of four quatrain stanzas; structurally and thematically speaking,the first stanza is connected with the third one, while the second is connected with the fourth one.
In order to understand the connotative meaning of the lines, “When that which drew from out the boundless deep / Turns again home,” we need to do a comparative reading of the lines in question and their parallel lines, “I hope to see my Pilot face to face / When I have crossed the bar,” in which the poet wishes to see his God (“Pilot’) face to face when he dies (“I have crossed the bar”). Then, we can see the lines, “When that which drew from out the boundless deep / Turns again home,” are a reference to God. The poet reveals his firm belief in Christianity: his God will come and go with him to Heavenly Home.
_________________
Time is nothing but a disquiet of the soul |
|
| 返回页首 |
|
|
戴玨[Edgar]
戴玨作品集
五品知州
（再努力一把就是四品大员了！）
注册时间: 2006-12-26
帖子: 213
|
| 发表于: 星期四 九月 04, 2008 4:27 pm 发表主题: Re: Crossing the Bar by Tennyson |
|
|
| ericcoliu 写到: | | 戴玨 写到: | | 但又覺得太specific，原文that究竟指什麽，并非十分清楚，所以後來去掉了。 |
In order to understand the connotative meaning of the lines, “When that which drew from out the boundless deep / Turns again home,” we need to do a comparative reading of the lines in question and their parallel lines, “I hope to see my Pilot face to face / When I have crossed the bar,” in which the poet wishes to see his God (“Pilot’) face to face when he dies (“I have crossed the bar”). Then, we can see the lines, “When that which drew from out the boundless deep / Turns again home,” are a reference to God. The poet reveals his firm belief in Christianity: his God will come and go with him to Heavenly Home. |
This is a good interpretation, but there're others too, in addition to the simplistic 'waves or what waves bring to the shore'. For example, it could refer to the poet's own life and death experience, I don't remember where I read this, Tennyson once almost died, but then somehow he survived, so he might think he'd already belonged to the boundless deep; though at the time he was on the shore of life, he was to return to the deep soon. 詩無達詁，a good poem has rich meanings, that's why I chose to leave the bit out (actually I'm following the original text more closely by doing this).
_________________
我的blog:
http://blog.sina.com.cn/u/1310527443 |
|
| 返回页首 |
|
|
Lake[Lake]
Lake作品集
二品总督
（刚入二品，小心做人）
注册时间: 2006-10-10
帖子: 1341
来自: Sky Blue Water
|
| 发表于: 星期五 九月 05, 2008 2:08 pm 发表主题: |
|
|
Haha, that's one reason I don't want to do translation for first of all you have to understand the original poem. And then even you know the background when a poem was written, or even you know all the references quoted in the poem, it still doesn't help a whole lot in translation for you can't put everything there or the poetics will be lost.
I'm not in favor of putting death or god in place of 'that', just like I am not sure if it is necessary to translate '安禪制毒龍' as 'Poison dragons of the mind' as in my other comment. It'll be too explicit, multi-meanings are lost. But still when I read the Chinese translation
此時那來自無垠深海的
又一次掉頭還鄉。
I'm stumbled. Maybe the more you read it, the better you feel? Don't know.
最后进行编辑的是 Lake on 星期五 九月 05, 2008 8:06 pm, 总计第 1 次编辑 |
|
| 返回页首 |
|
|
ericcoliu[ericcoliu]
ericcoliu作品集
二品总督
（刚入二品，小心做人）
注册时间: 2007-05-29
帖子: 1393
来自: GTA, Canada
|
| 发表于: 星期五 九月 05, 2008 3:07 pm 发表主题: Re: Crossing the Bar by Tennyson |
|
|
| 戴玨 写到: |
This is a good interpretation, but there're others too, in addition to the simplistic 'waves or what waves bring to the shore'. For example, it could refer to the poet's own life and death experience, I don't remember where I read this, Tennyson once almost died, but then somehow he survived, so he might think he'd already belonged to the boundless deep; though at the time he was on the shore of life, he was to return to the deep soon. 詩無達詁，a good poem has rich meanings, that's why I chose to leave the bit out (actually I'm following the original text more closely by doing this). |
Evidences?
Really?
I'm not asking you to translate the whole sentence to a single, big word -- GOD. That's the stupidest thing to do. What I ask you to think about is to consider the context in which he wrote this poem. Irritated by your seemingly knowledgeable and eloquent reply, I can't help challenging your "contextualized understanding" of his poem.
Do you have some knowledge about biblical symbolism? Or have you, at least, read the bible before?
Do you know that this poem is mainly used by Christians for their funeral services?
Or do you know that "Out the boundless deep" is a theologically-charged term?
Or do you know that not long before his death, Tennyson requested this poem to be placed at the end of all editions of his poems?
If you have time to read any scholarly books on his poetry, I believe you will get the same answer.
If not, please, at least, read a short review of his poem by Lord Hallam Tennyson (his eldest son)
| Lake 写到: |
Haha, that's one reason I don't want to do translation for first of all you have to understand the original poem. And then even you know the background when a poem was written, or even you know all the references quoted in the poem, it still doesn't help a whole lot in translation for you can't put everything there or the poetics will be not.
|
These are the first and foremost obligations of the responsible translator to his readers.
_________________
Time is nothing but a disquiet of the soul |
|
| 返回页首 |
|
|
戴玨[Edgar]
戴玨作品集
五品知州
（再努力一把就是四品大员了！）
注册时间: 2006-12-26
帖子: 213
|
| 发表于: 星期五 九月 05, 2008 7:53 pm 发表主题: Re: Crossing the Bar by Tennyson |
|
|
| ericcoliu 写到: | Evidences?
Really?
I'm not asking you to translate the whole sentence to a single, big word -- GOD. That's the stupidest thing to do. What I ask you to think about is to consider the context in which he wrote this poem. Irritated by your seemingly knowledgeable and eloquent reply, I can't help challenging your "contextualized understanding" of his poem.
Do you have some knowledge about biblical symbolism? Or have you, at least, read the bible before?
Do you know that this poem is mainly used by Christians for their funeral services?
Or do you know that "Out the boundless deep" is a theologically-charged term?
Or do you know that not long before his death, Tennyson requested this poem to be placed at the end of all editions of his poems?
If you have time to read any scholarly books on his poetry, I believe you will get the same answer.
If not, please, at least, read a short review of his poem by Lord Hallam Tennyson (his eldest son)
|
I think you're missing the point here.
First of all, yes to most of your questions. I didn't say I had not considered the context in which he wrote this poem. My mentioning of other interpretations doesn't mean I agree with them. It simply means different people may read different things out of a poem, be they ridiculous or not. When I said "I'm following the original text more closely", I was talking about the original words, not their connotations. This is just a conservative and safe strategy of translation (especially for poetry). Even if I agreed with very bit of your interpretations, I don't see why my text irritates you so much. There're other translated versions around, check them out, maybe you'll see what I mean. Please, don't confuse the function of translation and that of literary criticism.
_________________
我的blog:
http://blog.sina.com.cn/u/1310527443 |
|
| 返回页首 |
|
|
ericcoliu[ericcoliu]
ericcoliu作品集
二品总督
（刚入二品，小心做人）
注册时间: 2007-05-29
帖子: 1393
来自: GTA, Canada
|
| 发表于: 星期六 九月 06, 2008 9:57 am 发表主题: Re: Crossing the Bar by Tennyson |
|
|
| 戴玨 写到: |
I think you're missing the point here.
First of all, yes to most of your questions. I didn't say I had not considered the context in which he wrote this poem. My mentioning of other interpretations doesn't mean I agree with them. It simply means different people may read different things out of a poem, be they ridiculous or not. When I said "I'm following the original text more closely", I was talking about the original words, not their connotations. This is just a conservative and safe strategy of translation (especially for poetry). Even if I agreed with very bit of your interpretations, I don't see why my text irritates you so much. There're other translated versions around, check them out, maybe you'll see what I mean. Please, don't confuse the function of translation and that of literary criticism. |
The point here is that you have no clues about the contexts in which the poem was written, and you don't want to acknowledge that.
Lake 写到:
Haha, that's one reason I don't want to do translation for first of all you have to understand the original poem. And then even you know the background when a poem was written, or even you know all the references quoted in the poem, it still doesn't help a whole lot in translation for you can't put everything there or the poetics will be not.
These are very important obligations of the responsible translators and literary critics to their readers.
Please just read Translation in Context posted here and written by our fellow writer, timmid, whose academic training is translation. It will give you a historico-socio-political understanding of translation in the Chinese context and help you to do your translator's job better.
_________________
Time is nothing but a disquiet of the soul |
|
| 返回页首 |
|
|
东西[东西]
东西作品集
八品县丞
（又一个不小心，升了！）
注册时间: 2008-06-07
帖子: 53
来自: East_West
|
| 发表于: 星期一 九月 08, 2008 12:16 pm 发表主题: |
|
|
| 戴玨 写到: | | Lake 写到: | | 引用: | 此時那來自無垠深海的
又一次掉頭還鄉。
When that which drew from out the boundless deep
Turns again home. |
这句读了几遍，如果不看英文，是不大好理解。
我想是否在“此時那來自無垠深海的”后面加上个名词，即把 'that'的所指还原，语义可能会清楚些。
对翻译没研究，随便说说。 |
我本來翻成：
此時那來自無垠深海的浪
又一次掉頭還鄉。
但又覺得太specific，原文that究竟指什麽，并非十分清楚，所以後來去掉了。 |
For me as a reader of your translation, my concern is that how you translate these culturally and theologically loaded lines and make them apprehensible to Chinese readers.
Thank ericcoliu for your valuable information regarding the contexts in which the poem was written.
_________________
East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet. |
|
| 返回页首 |
|
|
anna[星子安娜]
anna作品集
Site Admin
注册时间: 2004-05-02
帖子: 7141
|
| 发表于: 星期一 九月 08, 2008 12:37 pm 发表主题: |
|
|
我希望跨過沙棱後
會面見我的領航者。
---I like the English one for these lines better for the tone of the language.
The translation here is a little wording. (生硬了些） But I don't have any better solution.
I do not think it is fair to ask the translator for perfection. As we all know the truth: It is impossible to translate the original one to be the same. Even for people who write in bilinguals .
So here I am ok with Edgar's omission of "That".
And I feel his reply is honest and open too.
Some following discussion is interesting too.
_________________
---------------------
Anna Yin
《爱的灯塔-星子安娜双语诗选》
<Nightlights> <Seven Nights with the Chinese Zodiac> ...
http://annapoetry.com |
|
| 返回页首 |
|
|
|
|
您不能发布新主题
您不能在这个论坛回复主题
您不能在这个论坛编辑自己的帖子
您不能在这个论坛删除自己的帖子
您不能在这个论坛发表投票
|
本论坛欢迎广大文学爱好者不拘一格地发表创作和评论.凡在网站发表的作品，即视为向《北美枫》丛书, 《诗歌榜》和《酷我电子杂志》投稿(暂无稿费, 请谅)。如果您的作品不想编入《北美枫》或《诗歌榜》或《酷我电子杂志》，请在发帖时注明。
作品版权归原作者.文责自负.作品的观点与<酷我-北美枫>网站无关.请勿用于商业,宗教和政治宣传.论坛上严禁人身攻击.管理员有权删除作品.
Powered by phpBB 2.0.8 © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
phpBB 简体中文界面由 iCy-fLaME 更新翻译 |
常见问题与解答 (FAQ)
搜索
成员列表
成员组
注册
个人资料
登陆查看您的私人留言
登陆
