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Lake[Lake]
Lake作品集
二品总督
（刚入二品，小心做人）
注册时间: 2006-10-10
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来自: Sky Blue Water
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 发表于: 星期一 十一月 06, 2006 10:47 pm 发表主题: |
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咦，什么时候上光荣榜了？
那是跟的帖子值得反复品读。 |
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kokho[晓辉]
kokho作品集
三品按察使
（天，你是斑竹吧？）
注册时间: 2006-10-25
帖子: 792
来自: Singapore
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| 发表于: 星期二 十一月 07, 2006 2:57 pm 发表主题: |
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再接再厉 ：））
。。
_________________
乒乓、摄影、诗歌 |
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Lake[Lake]
Lake作品集
二品总督
（刚入二品，小心做人）
注册时间: 2006-10-10
帖子: 1341
来自: Sky Blue Water
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| 发表于: 星期五 一月 02, 2009 12:06 pm 发表主题: |
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I didn't mean to bump it up (though it was), just thought it'd be nice to group all my haiku translations together. Now here it goes.
汉俳 by Xiao Fan
Tr. by Lake
雨滴(1)
激动的窗雨
稀释凝固的记忆
檐下点点滴
Raindrops
Excited raindrops
Dilute congealed memory
Drip under the eaves
沙鸥(2)
寒江浮轻舟
细雨空蒙淡淡愁
天地一沙鸥
Sand Gull
A light boat afloat
Fine rain dusts a gloomy mood
Between sky and earth, a lone gull
紫荆(3)
山色浮窗外
燕子低飞紫荆开
几朵落下来
Orchid
Mountain scene floats by
Swallows fly low, flowers bloom
A few petals fall
陨石(4)
失去了光泽
就默默隐入深山
听涧水低吟
Meteorite
Spent meteorite
Hides silent in deep mountains
Rift brook sings softly
晚霞(5)
秋高看晚霞
无边落叶萧萧下
鸟雀忙搬家
Sunset Clouds
Sunset clouds in sky
Fall leaves rustle and scatter
Birds busy moving
窗外(6)
画帘卷清风
一抹春色情更浓
窗外草青葱
Outside Window
Spring comes with deep love
Zephyr rolls up painted drape
Fresh green grass unfolds
读书(7)
山岚舞翠竹
清泉涓涓流不住
溪边好读书
Reading
Clear water trickles
Green bamboos dancing in haze
By the stream I read
两岸 8
一江春水路
两岸桃花相对哭
寒鸥落何处
River Banks
River of spring water
Peach blossoms cry on both banks
Cold, where will gulls perch?
杜甫草堂(9)
风雨几多年
草堂凄清无落雁
诗魂几处见
Thatched Cottage of Du Fu
Years of rain and wind
The thatchings house no swallows
Where is the poet’s soul?
别(10)
此去何匆匆
岂知哪年花再红
漫步月色中
Leaving
Why leave in haste？
When will flowers again turn red?
Let’s stroll in moonlight
These haiku translations (total of 20) are included in the author's book 《香江雅韵》. |
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anna[星子安娜]
anna作品集
Site Admin
注册时间: 2004-05-02
帖子: 7141
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| 发表于: 星期五 一月 02, 2009 12:43 pm 发表主题: |
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Congrats!
Anna
_________________
---------------------
Anna Yin
《爱的灯塔-星子安娜双语诗选》
<Nightlights> <Seven Nights with the Chinese Zodiac> ...
http://annapoetry.com |
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ericcoliu[ericcoliu]
ericcoliu作品集
二品总督
（刚入二品，小心做人）
注册时间: 2007-05-29
帖子: 1393
来自: GTA, Canada
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| 发表于: 星期六 一月 03, 2009 9:24 pm 发表主题: |
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| Lake 写到: |
These haiku translations (total of 20) are included in the author's book 《香江雅韵》. |
Congratulations! Has the book been published yet?
紫荆(3)
山色浮窗外
燕子低飞紫荆开
几朵落下来
Orchid
Mountain scene floats by
Swallows fly low, flowers bloom
A few petals fall
I think 窗外, which is not translated, is the key phrase in the poem.
I like Thatched Cottage of Du Fu best. The literary allusion adds historical depth to the poem.
No punctuation used in the Chinese haiku and the majority of the English translations. Does 晓帆 intend to “speed up” the paces of these poems?”
Though there is no punctuation in Japanese haiku, its place is taken by kireji (literally cut-words), such as ya, kana, keri, and the like, which have no translatable meaning. For non-Japanese haiku poets, they have therefore tried to give the effect of these kireji by the use of punctuation marks and interjection. Just a thought.
One other small thing. Unless this is your personal preference, I would take off the initial capitalization of each line. With poems this delicate it detracts a bit from the read.
_________________
Time is nothing but a disquiet of the soul |
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Lake[Lake]
Lake作品集
二品总督
（刚入二品，小心做人）
注册时间: 2006-10-10
帖子: 1341
来自: Sky Blue Water
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| 发表于: 星期日 一月 04, 2009 9:17 pm 发表主题: |
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| ericcoliu 写到: |
Congratulations! Has the book been published yet? |
Yes, in 2007.
| ericcoliu 写到: | | I think 窗外, which is not translated, is the key phrase in the poem. |
"outside the window" alone is already 5 syllables...
There is always something one is not happy with when the translation is done for various reasons. To fit into this 5/7/5 structure, these haiku translations have been worked numerous times. As long as the poetic spirit, or the tone of the poems is attained, I opted out of some phrases or switched some line orders. The difficulties of translating 汉俳 into English haiku were already spelled out in my previous posts. The Chinese 5-7-5 characters contain far more meanings than the English 5/7/5 syllables. Sometimes, one has to weigh what needs to be included and what needs to be left out. As you can see, the translation doesn’t follow the rhyme scheme in the original either. To fit into the structure and maintain the rhyming pattern at the same time is something that's very rare.
| ericcoliu 写到: |
No punctuation used in the Chinese haiku and the majority of the English translations. Does 晓帆 intend to “speed up” the paces of these poems?” |
I’m not aware of the inclusion or exclusion of the punctuation that will affect the pace of a poem. As far as I know, most of Xiao Fan’s haiku (including his other short or long poems) have no punctuations neither do other 汉俳 by other poets I’ve read. Even English haiku are free to use or not to use punctuations depending on the needs. These 汉俳 are all end-stopped, with a natural pause at the end of each line. Do you think a comma, or a period is necessary just for a pause?
| ericcoliu 写到: | | One other small thing. Unless this is your personal preference, I would take off the initial capitalization of each line. |
Probably that’s the editor’s preference. Or perhaps it is because these haiku are of a traditional, classical nature. Just like in other poems, some prefer all small letters; others prefer the capitals at the beginning of each line.
Thanks for the discussion. |
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ericcoliu[ericcoliu]
ericcoliu作品集
二品总督
（刚入二品，小心做人）
注册时间: 2007-05-29
帖子: 1393
来自: GTA, Canada
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| 发表于: 星期二 一月 06, 2009 9:10 am 发表主题: |
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| Lake 写到: |
To fit into this 5/7/5 structure,
The Chinese 5-7-5 characters contain far more meanings than the English 5/7/5 syllables. Sometimes, one has to weigh what needs to be included and what needs to be left out.
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“It is common knowledge that the traditional form of a Japanese haiku is three lines with five, seven, and five syllables. Unfortunately, this common knowledge is not quite accurate …
Concerning syllable count, the notion that haiku has a structure of five, seven, and five syllables has led some Westerns, especially in the past, to translate Japanese haiku into English or write American haiku with that structure. It is particularly common in public schools to teach students to write haiku in this form. But the English syllable is different from the Japanese equivalent (on, sound). “ (Basho's Haiku: Selected Poems of Matsuo Basho by David Landis Barnhill, p. 5)
“It is now known that about 12 -- not 17 – syllables in English are equivalent in length to the 17 onji (sound-symbols). ...
The form of haiku that has continued most in favour in English is the otherwise free-form three liner, often written with the second line slightly longer than the first and third. … this form [17 English syllables] is now mostly written by schoolchildren as an exercise to learn how to count syllables, by beginners who know little about the true essence of haiku …” (The Haiku Anthology by Cor Van Den Heuvel, p. xv, p. xxviii)
Almost every published English haiku poet who studies and writes haiku composes his/her haiku in “the otherwise free-form three liner.” And none of English-speaking societies of haiku I know of promotes the “17-syllable form.”
| Lake 写到: |
Sometimes, one has to weigh what needs to be included and what needs to be left out. As you can see, the translation doesn’t follow the rhyme scheme in the original either. To fit into the structure and maintain the rhyming pattern at the same time is something that's very rare.
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For anyone who studies and writes haiku, one must know one simple fact: don’t use rhyme scheme if one follows the poetic spirit of Basho’s hokku or so-called haiku advocated by the English haiku movement. It’s because Japanese haiku is unrhymed and the rhyming distracts the reader from paying attention to the subtle suggestiveness of the haiku moment.
| Lake 写到: |
I’m not aware of the inclusion or exclusion of the punctuation that will affect the pace of a poem.
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Poetry is not only to be read silently on the page, but also to be read out according its rhythm in front of people.
For poets, it’s common sense that the length of lines, mood, alliteration, long or short vowel sounds, how punctuation marks are used, … can change the pace of a poem. And you find this in any book on how to read or write a poem. Emily Dickinson’s poetry is known for its wild use of dashes, question marks, and exclamation marks. Can you imagine one read aloud the two versions, with and without punctuation, of her same poem at the same pace? If you’re interested in her poetry and her use of punctuation, for further information on this issue, read Emily Dickinson's Volcanic Punctuation (The Emily Dickinson Journal - Volume 2, Number 1, Spring 1993, pp. 22-46), in which the author examines the rhythmic function of punctuation in her poetry.
Now, just let’s do a simple experiment:
What’s your view of the pace of each poem listed below:
e. e. cummings’ famous grasshopper poem:
r-p-o-p-h-e-s-s-a-g-r
and my poem:
rpophessagr.
Do they have the same pace?
| Lake 写到: |
As far as I know, most of Xiao Fan’s haiku (including his other short or long poems) have no punctuations neither do other 汉俳 by other poets I’ve read. Even English haiku are free to use or not to use punctuations depending on the needs. These 汉俳 are all end-stopped, with a natural pause at the end of each line. Do you think a comma, or a period is necessary just for a pause?
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In my view, the use or non-use of punctuation is one of the most conscious choices a poet can make to meet his/her aesthetical requirements by the verse form he/she employs and to reveal his/her poetic sensibilities. The reason I mentioned the use of punctuation in my previous reply is that I wondered: did authors know kireji is the formal element of haiku?
(By the way, due to the use of kireji, Japanese haiku are printed in one line, and the Japanese reader is aware of the rhythm in the haiku.)
For any established non-Japanese haiku poet, one would use punctuation marks (mainly “:”, “!”, “--,“ and “,”), interjection, spaces, and even the layout of a poem, to give the effect of these kireji.
In the case of English haiku, you can check my argument by reading recent translations of Japanese haiku or anthologies of haiku by anyone who studies and writes haiku.
As for the end-stopped lines in which a natural grammatical pause collide with the end of a line, the effect of a end-stopped line is increased when it concludes with an emphatic punctuation mark, as in the first eight lines of "The Starlit Night." By Gerard Manley Hopkins (How to Read a Poem By Edward Hirsch, p. 280).
Even the skillful use of “comma” can make a poem dramatically differently.
Jose Garcia Villa, awarded the National Artist of the Philippines title for literature and known to have introduced the "reversed consonance rime scheme" in writing poetry, made the extensive use of commas, by which he won the title of the Comma Poet.
By the way, if you're interested in Basho's hokku, Haruo Shirane's Traces of Dreams: Landscape, Cultural Memory, and the Poetry of Bashō establishes the ground for badly needed critical discussion of this critical figure by placing the works of Basho and his disciples in the context of broader social change.
_________________
Time is nothing but a disquiet of the soul
最后进行编辑的是 ericcoliu on 星期二 一月 06, 2009 3:18 pm, 总计第 6 次编辑 |
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Lake[Lake]
Lake作品集
二品总督
（刚入二品，小心做人）
注册时间: 2006-10-10
帖子: 1341
来自: Sky Blue Water
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| 发表于: 星期二 一月 06, 2009 11:49 am 发表主题: |
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| ericcoliu 写到: |
“It is common knowledge that the traditional form of a Japanese haiku is three lines with seven, five, and seven syllables. Unfortunately, this common knowledge is not quite accurate …
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"seven, five, and seven", whose words are these? I can't believe it that I'm wrong again!? |
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ericcoliu[ericcoliu]
ericcoliu作品集
二品总督
（刚入二品，小心做人）
注册时间: 2007-05-29
帖子: 1393
来自: GTA, Canada
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| 发表于: 星期二 一月 06, 2009 11:59 am 发表主题: |
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| Lake 写到: |
| ericcoliu 写到: |
“It is common knowledge that the traditional form of a Japanese haiku is three lines with seven, five, and seven syllables. Unfortunately, this common knowledge is not quite accurate …
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"seven, five, and seven", whose words are these? I can't believe it that I'm wrong again!? |
Sorry! Typing errors. It should be "five, seven, and five syllables."
_________________
Time is nothing but a disquiet of the soul |
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Lake[Lake]
Lake作品集
二品总督
（刚入二品，小心做人）
注册时间: 2006-10-10
帖子: 1341
来自: Sky Blue Water
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| 发表于: 星期三 一月 07, 2009 12:23 am 发表主题: My preference |
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I saw you modified your post while my reply is based on your original, so forgive me if there's anything that is irrelevant to your adjustment.
If you can recall my English haiku you’ve read here, you can tell they pretty much have shown my preference, understanding/misunderstanding of the use of syllables and punctuations. If I'm not boasting, I'm one of those who are the first to break the 17 syllable- rule and use different punctuations in haiku here.
Would you think the following line is better
Mountains float outside
or
Mountain scene outside
than
Mountain scene floats by
I'm excited to see how you translate, if you would, this haiku within 12 syllables without leaving anything out. |
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Lake[Lake]
Lake作品集
二品总督
（刚入二品，小心做人）
注册时间: 2006-10-10
帖子: 1341
来自: Sky Blue Water
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| 发表于: 星期三 一月 07, 2009 12:40 am 发表主题: Difference between different languages |
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I know the two languages and the three languages are different enough to disregard the syllable count and the rhyme. That’s why English haiku are preferred to be within 12 syllables, and Chinese haiku are hard to be wrapped in English even in 17 syllables. It is clear that the classical Chinese haiku are based on its traditional poems of 5 characters and 7 characters to a line, with its own unique sonics, rhythms and rhyming scheme. As I said before, haiku is more than syllable count and three liners; I’ve read haiku that are written in two lines or even in one line.
最后进行编辑的是 Lake on 星期三 一月 07, 2009 1:09 am, 总计第 1 次编辑 |
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Lake[Lake]
Lake作品集
二品总督
（刚入二品，小心做人）
注册时间: 2006-10-10
帖子: 1341
来自: Sky Blue Water
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| 发表于: 星期三 一月 07, 2009 12:47 am 发表主题: Keep open-minded |
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| Some poetry forums I’ve visited stick to the strict 5/7/5 form (I never look down on these haiku), while others are pretty free. If I see this haiku is written in 5/7/5 form, I’ll be critical to its syllable count; otherwise I’ll ignore the syllables but look for that moment. There are good haiku and bad haiku in both styles. If a haiku can be written in two languages, both in the same form, I'd say it's a challenge, it's admirable. |
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Lake[Lake]
Lake作品集
二品总督
（刚入二品，小心做人）
注册时间: 2006-10-10
帖子: 1341
来自: Sky Blue Water
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| 发表于: 星期三 一月 07, 2009 1:05 am 发表主题: Your examples of punctuation |
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| The examples you gave on Emily Dickinson and e.e. cunnings are their personal trade marks. The punctuations employed by Dickinson expressed the flow of her inner feelings and gave her poem a cadence. Nowadays, not many people use the punctuation the way she did, though. cunnings, I admire his gift and creativity but I don’t think I can ever do it like that. The grasshopper example to me is more like a scrambled word, of course, grasshoppers jump, the punctuation applied here works; but I can’t imagine a haiku or a sonnet written with such punctuated scrambled words. If so, it would take more than one breath to finish a haiku. and that's not the spirit of haiku. Like what I say, depending on the needs. You can't expect people do the same thing, can you? |
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ericcoliu[ericcoliu]
ericcoliu作品集
二品总督
（刚入二品，小心做人）
注册时间: 2007-05-29
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来自: GTA, Canada
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| 发表于: 星期四 一月 08, 2009 11:11 am 发表主题: |
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| Lake 写到: |
I saw you modified your post while my reply is based on your original, |
I just corrected my grammatical and typing errors and added one more line to make the passage more clearer.
| Lake 写到: |
I'm excited to see how you translate, if you would, this haiku within 12 syllables without leaving anything out. |
Lake, I view, at least at this stage of my English writing career, myself as a serious literary critic, which I’ve published so far three English essays in a scholarly journal. I don’t do translation work. My role in our discussions is a peer reviewer, not a translator. More importantly, I think you can do better than what you’ve done so far because you're a good learner and listener.
Below is a good example I think maybe you can learn from:
"let’s read Burton Watson’s translation:
Empty hills, no one in sight,
only the sound of someone talking;
late sunlight enters the deep wood,
shining over the green moss again.
Without using rhyming or capitalizing, Watson successfully creates the vivid imagery in everyday language. For example, he translates the first two Chinese characters of line one with two English words: no article, no explanation. His way of presenting the imagery is as direct and concrete as the Chinese one. There are 24 English words for 20 Chinese characters, yet every Chinese character has been translated. More importantly, he faithfully keeps Wang’s parallelism – the dual nature of the universe, yin and yang -- employed in the poem, and he is the first translator to do so. For example, if we now look at the first two lines, we find alternating yin and yang: absence (emptiness) and presence (mountain); absence clearly not there (no one in sight) and presence unclearly there (only the sound of someone talking, nonlocalized voices)."
-- An excerpt from my review essay entitled Translation: More Than a Leap from Dictionary to Dictionary
There are 24 English words for 20 Chinese characters, yet every Chinese character has been translated.
| Lake 写到: | | If you can recall my English haiku you’ve read here, you can tell they pretty much have shown my preference, understanding/misunderstanding of the use of syllables and punctuations. If I'm not boasting, I'm one of those who are the first to break the 17 syllable- rule and use different punctuations in haiku here. |
Having read your English haiku so far since I joined this forum, I think your English haiku, just like the overwhelming majority of those written by established haiku poets or practitioners, are highly influenced by the Modern English Haiku movement, which has been deeply shaped by modern Japanese “haiku” poets, especially by Shiki, the poet who separated hokku from haikai, “renaming” it haiku, and who launched a scathing attack on Basho in “Chat on Basho.” Modern English Haiku bears a little of the “poetic essence” of Basho’s haikai poetics while claiming its literary status as the loyal descent of Basho’s “haiku.”
Aside from their learning of haiku writing in schools or at poetry forums, how many haiku poets or practitioners study “haiku” or “hokku" while claiming their love for Basho’s “haiku?” or “hokku?”
| Lake 写到: | | There are good haiku and bad haiku in both styles. |
Before making any judgment, one must know what haiku is.
Let’s just shift a little the focus of your question. Allow me ask you a different yet relevant question:
What makes Basho’s frog poem good?
If I replace “frog” with any other amphibian animal, is this poem still a good poem?
Or you just wipe your “knowledge of haiku and perception of divine Basho” off your mind, read his “unrhymed tercet poem” at least twice.
Be honest with me, will you still think this is a good poem which is worthy of more than a hundred different English translations (see One Hundred Frogs; by the way, most of them don’t know this hokku is not an independent poem published during his days)?
If so, tell me why?
For anyone who claims his/her love for haiku or who views himself/herself as a haiku poet or practitioner, I think this is the most important question needed to be honestly answered.
| Lake 写到: | | but I can’t imagine a haiku or a sonnet written with such punctuated scrambled words. |
Aside from what I said in my previous replies concerning punctuation, syllable count, and the number of lines (By the way, the line I added later in my previous reply is that “due to the use of kireji, Japanese haiku are printed in one line, and the Japanese reader is aware of the rhythm in the haiku”, I want to add few more things here:
First, for any poet or anyone who aspires to be a good poet, the use of punctuation is not only functionally instrumental but also aesthetically expressive. In the case of Dickinson and cummings, they set good examples for aspiring poets.
Second, functionally speaking, kireji are “like” the Japanese equivalent of punctuation marks. Aesthetically speaking, for anyone who is interested in the “poetic essence” of the Basho’s school, one must know that kireji are used to aesthetically express the poetic sentiments in the 17-syllable hokku, one of the important techniques as Kyoriku, one of the foremost disciples of Basho, had argued in his work.
Finally, due to its incisive brevity of haiku, writing a less-than-17-syllable English haiku is an important, but not divine, rule. If you read the bilingual translation of a haiku, you’ll find that the number of Japanese words is far less than that of English ones. The brevity of haiku is in fact possible because each poem is implicitly part of a ,massive, communally shared poem. This conception of haiku has never been developed in the Modern English Haiku movement because of its individualistic approach and disdain for the use of rhetoric devices, such as allusion.
In a nutshell, Lake, you write good short poems, but not good haiku based on the ideals set by Modern English haiku, which is loosely connected to the poetic tradition of Basho.
Surely, one can has one’s version of haiku. But one must ask oneself: what does haiku, not called a short poem, mean?
I know you’re a lover of classical Japanese “haiku poets” and a poet who aspires to write good “haiku.” That’s why I spent time responding to your questions as best as I can.
Thanks for the patience and honest discussions.
Eric
_________________
Time is nothing but a disquiet of the soul
最后进行编辑的是 ericcoliu on 星期五 一月 09, 2009 7:37 am, 总计第 1 次编辑 |
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Lake[Lake]
Lake作品集
二品总督
（刚入二品，小心做人）
注册时间: 2006-10-10
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来自: Sky Blue Water
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| 发表于: 星期四 一月 08, 2009 2:16 pm 发表主题: |
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| ericcoliu 写到: | That’s why I spent time responding to your questions as best as I can.
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First off, I'm indebted to your time, effort, research and enthusiasm in this thread, though I thought this series of communications starts from your questions, doesn't it? That the discussion has gone over the critics on the poems themselves is a gain.
To make another point clear, when I talked about the inclusion/exclusion of the punctuation, I was referring to the poems in discussion here.
In response to your question:
| 引用: | | The reason I mentioned the use of punctuation in my previous reply is that I wondered: did authors know kireji is the formal element of haiku? |
I don't know who the authors you are referring to, I don't know the answer.
There is one thing I know of is that among 晓帆's publications, one book entitled Selected 汉俳 in Chinese and Japanese, is translated by Japanese poets, who definitely know how to use "kireji ".
You made me google and here is what I read. Thank you for this.
Kireji have no direct equivalent in English. Mid-verse kireji have been described as sounded rather than written punctuation. In English-language haiku and hokku, as well as in translations of such verses into this language, kireji may be represented by punctuation (typically by a dash or an ellipsis), an exclamatory particle (such as 'how...'), or simply left unmarked. |
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