酷我-北美枫

[非马]

作者简介

劳伦斯．佛灵盖蒂(Lawrence Ferlinghetti) 一九一九年生于纽约。身兼诗人、画家、书籍设计者，他在旧金山开设了一个叫「城灯」的书店及出版社。他与柯劳克、柯守及金斯堡同属「疲脱」 （Beat）一代的作家，勇敢而坦率地向学院派的低气压挑战。但他反对其他「疲脱」作家的神秘及政治狂热的倾向，而独创出一种机智、口语化及自然抒发的诗型。他出版的诗集有《往事如画》(Pictures of the Gone World, 1955),《心灵的科尼岛》（A Coney Island of the Mind, 1958） 及《自旧金山出发》（ Starting from San Francisco, 1961）等多种．其中《心灵的科尼岛》再版二十多次，销数超过七十万册。他经常到处朗诵自己的诗作，广受欢迎。




9

「真理不是少数人的秘密」
但
你也许会这么想
当你看到某些
图书馆员
以及文化大使们
特别是博物馆员
的作为

你会以为他们专利
了它
他们
昂首
阔步的样子
有如他们从不曾
进过洗澡
间或什么似的

但我可不责怪他们
假如我是你
他们说表达灵智最好是用
抽象的名辞
只是
走在博物馆里常使我
想
「蹲下来」
我总感到
便秘
在那种
高度


13

那是一张黑暗顿时杀得死
的脸
一张笑或光不费吹灰之力便伤害得了
的脸

「在夜里我们的想法不同」
她有一次告诉我
无力地往后躺下

接著她便引高克多的话

「我感到有个天使在我体内」 她会说
「不断受我
惊扰」

然后她便微笑且把眼光移开去
为我点支香烟
叹口气又爬起来
活动活动
她甜蜜的骨架
让一只袜子掉下来



21

天堂
那晚只有平时一半远
在诗歌朗诵会上
满耳是火辣辣的辞句
当我听到诗人作了
一个音韵铿锵的结尾
然后望开去以一个
迷失的眼神
「所有动物」最后他说
「在性交之后都是悲哀的」
但末排的情人们
看起来心不在焉
且很快活的样子


选译自《往事如画》
<非马艺术世界>网站 http://wmarr9.home.comcast.net/bmz.htm
有更多佛灵盖蒂的译诗,欢迎前往点阅.

注: 原诗的诗句排列相当特别,可惜此处无法保持原状.

[[FAFAFA]]

作者简介

劳伦斯．佛灵盖蒂(Lawrence Ferlinghetti) 一九一九年生于纽约。身兼诗人、画家、书籍设计者，他在旧金山开设了一个叫「城灯」的书店及出版社。他与柯劳克、柯守及金斯堡同属「疲脱」 （Beat）一代的作家，勇敢而坦率地向学院派的低气压挑战。但他反对其他「疲脱」作家的神秘及政治狂热的倾向，而独创出一种机智、口语化及自然抒发的诗型。他出版的诗集有《往事如画》(Pictures of the Gone World, 1955),《心灵的科尼岛》（A Coney Island of the Mind, 1958） 及《自旧金山出发》（ Starting from San Francisco, 1961）等多种．其中《心灵的科尼岛》再版二十多次，销数超过七十万册。他经常到处朗诵自己的诗作，广受欢迎。




9

「真理不是少数人的秘密」
但
你也许会这么想
当你看到某些
图书馆员
以及文化大使们
特别是博物馆员
的作为

你会以为他们专利
了它
他们
昂首
阔步的样子
有如他们从不曾
进过洗澡
间或什么似的

但我可不责怪他们
假如我是你
他们说表达灵智最好是用
抽象的名辞
只是
走在博物馆里常使我
想
「蹲下来」
我总感到
便秘
在那种
高度


13

那是一张黑暗顿时杀得死
的脸
一张笑或光不费吹灰之力便伤害得了
的脸

「在夜里我们的想法不同」
她有一次告诉我
无力地往后躺下

接著她便引高克多的话

「我感到有个天使在我体内」 她会说
「不断受我
惊扰」

然后她便微笑且把眼光移开去
为我点支香烟
叹口气又爬起来
活动活动
她甜蜜的骨架
让一只袜子掉下来



21

天堂
那晚只有平时一半远
在诗歌朗诵会上
满耳是火辣辣的辞句
当我听到诗人作了
一个音韵铿锵的结尾
然后望开去以一个
迷失的眼神
「所有动物」最后他说
「在性交之后都是悲哀的」
但末排的情人们
看起来心不在焉
且很快活的样子


选译自《往事如画》
<非马艺术世界>网站 http://wmarr9.home.comcast.net/bmz.htm
有更多佛灵盖蒂的译诗,欢迎前往点阅.

注: 原诗的诗句排列相当特别,可惜此处无法保持原状.

[Lake]

谢谢飞马先生的分享。 能否将英文也贴出来，好便于学习。

三首诗的结尾，

“ 走在博物馆里常使我
想
「蹲下来」
我总感到
便秘
在那种
高度 “

” 她甜蜜的骨架
让一只袜子掉下来 "

"「所有动物」最后他说
「在性交之后都是悲哀的」
但末排的情人们
看起来心不在焉
且很快活的样子"


好像说到骨子里了，非常精彩。有特色。

谢谢！

[[Lake]]

谢谢飞马先生的分享。 能否将英文也贴出来，好便于学习。

三首诗的结尾，

“ 走在博物馆里常使我
想
「蹲下来」
我总感到
便秘
在那种
高度 “

” 她甜蜜的骨架
让一只袜子掉下来 "

"「所有动物」最后他说
「在性交之后都是悲哀的」
但末排的情人们
看起来心不在焉
且很快活的样子"


好像说到骨子里了，非常精彩。有特色。

谢谢！

[非马]

LAKE 好!没贴原文的原因,一是这是多年前的旧译,得花点工夫去找,二是考虑到版权问题.
其实我的翻译同原文相当贴近,几乎是一对一.
美国的公共图书馆应该都能找到佛灵盖蒂的书.如找不到,请告诉我,我去找.

[[FAFAFA]]

LAKE 好!没贴原文的原因,一是这是多年前的旧译,得花点工夫去找,二是考虑到版权问题.
其实我的翻译同原文相当贴近,几乎是一对一.
美国的公共图书馆应该都能找到佛灵盖蒂的书.如找不到,请告诉我,我去找.

[Lake]

谢谢非马先生。有空，我在我们这的图书馆找找看，应该是可以找到的。

[[Lake]]

谢谢非马先生。有空，我在我们这的图书馆找找看，应该是可以找到的。

[非马]

[[FAFAFA]]

[ericcoliu]

Truth Is Not the Secret of a Few defies the idea that only those with cultural credentials are gatekeepers of truth. As a counter-culture poet, Lawrence Ferlinghetti is not trying to own the truth, but to make it accessible to everyone.
_________________
Time is nothing but a disquiet of the soul

[[ericcoliu]]

Truth Is Not the Secret of a Few defies the idea that only those with cultural credentials are gatekeepers of truth. As a counter-culture poet, Lawrence Ferlinghetti is not trying to own the truth, but to make it accessible to everyone.
_________________
Time is nothing but a disquiet of the soul

[末梵]

说说我的看法？
不吐不快。

9

「真理不是少数人的秘密」
但
你也许会这么想
当你看到某些
图书馆员
以及文化大使们
特别是博物馆员
的作为

你会以为他们专利
了它
他们
昂首
阔步的样子
有如他们从不曾
进过洗澡
间或什么似的

但我可不责怪他们
假如我是你
他们说表达灵智最好是用
抽象的名辞
只是
走在博物馆里常使我
想
「蹲下来」
我总感到
便秘
在那种
高度


翻译过来供人们学习本来是件好事，但更多时候我觉得恰恰适得其反了。
比如上述这首诗歌在本语种范围内或许是优秀的，其语言和艺术水准或许也是高的；但翻译过来以后连语言的基本规范性都谈不上，它支离破碎，令人不堪一读。

这虽然可能怪不得翻译者，因为就是即使同一语种的诗歌内部都无法达到极致，比如，谁能用现代汉语把《诗经》翻译得令人满意？

连语言的规范性都谈不上，谈艺术的神圣性似乎奢侈了些。

况且这种翻译体西诗在中国流毒甚深，许多初学者就是通过这种样式来学习诗歌得，结果邯郸学步。

郑愁予曾言：李悦然翻译北岛诗特漂亮。真想一见。
钱钟书说：别自信自己能是半个高额。

[[...]]

说说我的看法？
不吐不快。

9

「真理不是少数人的秘密」
但
你也许会这么想
当你看到某些
图书馆员
以及文化大使们
特别是博物馆员
的作为

你会以为他们专利
了它
他们
昂首
阔步的样子
有如他们从不曾
进过洗澡
间或什么似的

但我可不责怪他们
假如我是你
他们说表达灵智最好是用
抽象的名辞
只是
走在博物馆里常使我
想
「蹲下来」
我总感到
便秘
在那种
高度


翻译过来供人们学习本来是件好事，但更多时候我觉得恰恰适得其反了。
比如上述这首诗歌在本语种范围内或许是优秀的，其语言和艺术水准或许也是高的；但翻译过来以后连语言的基本规范性都谈不上，它支离破碎，令人不堪一读。

这虽然可能怪不得翻译者，因为就是即使同一语种的诗歌内部都无法达到极致，比如，谁能用现代汉语把《诗经》翻译得令人满意？

连语言的规范性都谈不上，谈艺术的神圣性似乎奢侈了些。

况且这种翻译体西诗在中国流毒甚深，许多初学者就是通过这种样式来学习诗歌得，结果邯郸学步。

郑愁予曾言：李悦然翻译北岛诗特漂亮。真想一见。
钱钟书说：别自信自己能是半个高额。

[anna]

我也和本地诗人讨论过翻译问题，版权问题西方世界很重视，也很自觉遵守。

现代诗因为很难理解，所以很多人翻译反而是字面上的（即逐字翻译），可是这样就很象机器翻译了。。。
_________________
---------------------

Anna Yin

《爱的灯塔-星子安娜双语诗选》
<Nightlights> <Seven Nights with the Chinese Zodiac> ...

http://annapoetry.com

[[星子安娜]]

我也和本地诗人讨论过翻译问题，版权问题西方世界很重视，也很自觉遵守。

现代诗因为很难理解，所以很多人翻译反而是字面上的（即逐字翻译），可是这样就很象机器翻译了。。。
_________________
---------------------

Anna Yin

《爱的灯塔-星子安娜双语诗选》
<Nightlights> <Seven Nights with the Chinese Zodiac> ...

http://annapoetry.com

[非马]

谢谢末梵和 anna的评语. 我也考虑到对初学者可能会有负面的影响.但每样东西都有好几个面.疲脱诗人们(也称‘垮掉的一代’)反传统反语法的作品在美国曾风靡过一阵,给美国的当代诗坛带来了前所未有的活力,好象并没因此而产生什么流毒或后遗症.所以如果它们在中国产生了流毒,而且是流毒甚深,我们也许该另找原因吧.

[[FAFAFA]]

谢谢末梵和 anna的评语. 我也考虑到对初学者可能会有负面的影响.但每样东西都有好几个面.疲脱诗人们(也称‘垮掉的一代’)反传统反语法的作品在美国曾风靡过一阵,给美国的当代诗坛带来了前所未有的活力,好象并没因此而产生什么流毒或后遗症.所以如果它们在中国产生了流毒,而且是流毒甚深,我们也许该另找原因吧.

[ericcoliu]

I think translation, viewed as a literary mode of being deeply-rooted in specific cultural and historic context, should be contextualized as a social system in which infidelity is built because it inevitably describes domestic scenes that are loaded not only linguistically and culturally, but also socially and politically.

It seems to me that the dispute here is a re-enactment of the debates on literalism and foreignization in the May Fourth Period, which were heralded by Lu Xun and Zhou Zuoren. In his article entitled Translation in Context, Timmid gives a thorough and contextualized description about these debates, which still are meaningful to our discussion today:


"This constitutes a delicate situation: translation was torn by the pulls and pushes between the Classical Chinese system and the emerging vernacular system, and it in turn added to the pulls and pushes. The pulls, namely, the domestic cultural and political agenda that guided the work of these translators, did not entirely efface the differences of the foreign texts. On the contrary, the drive to domesticate was also intended to introduce different Western ideas and forms into China so that it would be able to compete internationally and struggle against the imperialistic countries. As a result, the recurrent analogies between classical Chinese culture and modern Western values usually involved a transformation of both, transformation foreshadowed by the built-in paradox in the guideline of "Chinese learning for the essential principles, Western learning for the practical applications."

The importation of new concepts and paradigms, as indicated above, had a potential to set going the transition from ancient traditions, whether oral or literary, to modern notions of time and space, of self and nation. In fact, China at the turn of the 20th century presented a rich instance of the translator's intent on building a national culture by importing foreign literatures. The classical Chinese system could continue if the environment was itself relatively homogeneous and secure. It could keep producing works of literature in a language no longer spoken by the majority of the population and with little or no bearing on what was actually happening in the environment. However, when that environment came under increasing pressure from outside and when new groups, such as the emerging bourgeoisie, capable of offering alternative sources of patronage, began to appear inside it, it was likely to crumble.

The pushes became more obvious when translation was enlisted in a nationalist cultural politics, aiming to build a vernacular literature that was modern, not simply Westernized; for instance, Lu Xun and Zhou Zuoren would use literary translation as a means of changing China's subordinate position. Their anthology of translation, published in 1909, registered, rather than removed, the linguistic and cultural differences of foreign fiction. Their translations were written in wenyan combined with Europeanized lexical and syntactical features, transliterations of Western names, and Japanese loan word. However, the pushes also had a domestic source, since the foreign, i.e., differing from dominant translation practices, was a response to the current Chinese situation. In opposition to the comforting Confucian familiarity offered by many late Qing period translations, Lu Xun and Zhou Zuoren's foreignizing strategies were designed to convey the unsettling strangeness of modern ideas and forms. This embodied an idea of change, and a hope of modernization. The heterogeneous construction in their translation was an excellent trope for change, trope of equivalence created in the middle zone between West and China. Its presence points to a much more widely based and deep-seated revolutionary process that has fundamentally changed the linguistic landscape of China. Their anthology was joined by such other translation projects as the Union Version of the Bible (1919) in fostering the development of a literary discourse in baihua, which subsequently evolved into the national language of China."
_________________
Time is nothing but a disquiet of the soul

[[ericcoliu]]

I think translation, viewed as a literary mode of being deeply-rooted in specific cultural and historic context, should be contextualized as a social system in which infidelity is built because it inevitably describes domestic scenes that are loaded not only linguistically and culturally, but also socially and politically.

It seems to me that the dispute here is a re-enactment of the debates on literalism and foreignization in the May Fourth Period, which were heralded by Lu Xun and Zhou Zuoren. In his article entitled Translation in Context, Timmid gives a thorough and contextualized description about these debates, which still are meaningful to our discussion today:


"This constitutes a delicate situation: translation was torn by the pulls and pushes between the Classical Chinese system and the emerging vernacular system, and it in turn added to the pulls and pushes. The pulls, namely, the domestic cultural and political agenda that guided the work of these translators, did not entirely efface the differences of the foreign texts. On the contrary, the drive to domesticate was also intended to introduce different Western ideas and forms into China so that it would be able to compete internationally and struggle against the imperialistic countries. As a result, the recurrent analogies between classical Chinese culture and modern Western values usually involved a transformation of both, transformation foreshadowed by the built-in paradox in the guideline of "Chinese learning for the essential principles, Western learning for the practical applications."

The importation of new concepts and paradigms, as indicated above, had a potential to set going the transition from ancient traditions, whether oral or literary, to modern notions of time and space, of self and nation. In fact, China at the turn of the 20th century presented a rich instance of the translator's intent on building a national culture by importing foreign literatures. The classical Chinese system could continue if the environment was itself relatively homogeneous and secure. It could keep producing works of literature in a language no longer spoken by the majority of the population and with little or no bearing on what was actually happening in the environment. However, when that environment came under increasing pressure from outside and when new groups, such as the emerging bourgeoisie, capable of offering alternative sources of patronage, began to appear inside it, it was likely to crumble.

The pushes became more obvious when translation was enlisted in a nationalist cultural politics, aiming to build a vernacular literature that was modern, not simply Westernized; for instance, Lu Xun and Zhou Zuoren would use literary translation as a means of changing China's subordinate position. Their anthology of translation, published in 1909, registered, rather than removed, the linguistic and cultural differences of foreign fiction. Their translations were written in wenyan combined with Europeanized lexical and syntactical features, transliterations of Western names, and Japanese loan word. However, the pushes also had a domestic source, since the foreign, i.e., differing from dominant translation practices, was a response to the current Chinese situation. In opposition to the comforting Confucian familiarity offered by many late Qing period translations, Lu Xun and Zhou Zuoren's foreignizing strategies were designed to convey the unsettling strangeness of modern ideas and forms. This embodied an idea of change, and a hope of modernization. The heterogeneous construction in their translation was an excellent trope for change, trope of equivalence created in the middle zone between West and China. Its presence points to a much more widely based and deep-seated revolutionary process that has fundamentally changed the linguistic landscape of China. Their anthology was joined by such other translation projects as the Union Version of the Bible (1919) in fostering the development of a literary discourse in baihua, which subsequently evolved into the national language of China."
_________________
Time is nothing but a disquiet of the soul

[末梵]

[[...]]

[非马]

Thank you, Eric, for your thoughtful comments and quotations.

[[FFFFFF]]

Thank you, Eric, for your thoughtful comments and quotations.

[Lake]

[[Lake]]