阅读上一个主题 :: 阅读下一个主题 |
作者 |
留言 |
fanfan[FAFAFA] fanfan作品集 四品府丞 (封疆大吏也!)
注册时间: 2007-12-27 帖子: 353 来自: Canada
|
发表于: 星期六 五月 24, 2008 7:25 pm 发表主题: |
|
|
I've withdrawn my statement. _________________ Don't imitate me;
it's as boring
as the two halves of a melon.
最后进行编辑的是 fanfan on 星期二 五月 27, 2008 8:11 am, 总计第 1 次编辑 |
|
返回页首 |
|
|
ericcoliu[ericcoliu] ericcoliu作品集 二品总督 (刚入二品,小心做人)
注册时间: 2007-05-29 帖子: 1393 来自: GTA, Canada
|
发表于: 星期日 五月 25, 2008 9:14 pm 发表主题: |
|
|
Lake 写到: |
I don't like 'hope' and 'despair' in the poem since as I said they are abstract (so is 'dream'), which should be avoided in haiku. The images in haiku should be suggestive of feelings, that's the reason I don't like 'dust' and 'cries' in the other version, which are too direct. Maybe modern haiku don't have to follow these rules. I don't know.
|
Really? A lot of Japanese haiku masters wrote their haiku by using "abstract words."
Even if this is a golden rule for writing haiku, the inalienable obligation and responsibility of the writer is to break the rule.
What follows are some rule-breaking examples from Haiku selected and edited by Peter Washington and translation, a collection of haiku written by the great Japanese masters in pioneering translations by R. H. Blyth.:
Ah, grief and sadness!
The fishing-line trembles
In the autumn breeze.
-- Buson
An autumn eve:
There is joy too
In loneliness.
-- Buson
Having cut the peony,
I felt dejected
That evening.
-- Buson
The first day of the year:
I remember
A lonely autumn evening.
-- Basho
Not lighting the paper lantern,
I grieved
For spring.
-- Kito
What pains I took,
Hanging the lamp
On the flowering branch.
-- Shiki
Plum-blossoms:
My spring
Is an ecstasy.
-- Issa
A cage of fire-flies
For the sick child:
Loneliness.
-- Ryota
The blossoms have fallen;
Our minds are now
Tranquil.
--Koyu-ni
Peace and quiet:
Leaning on a stick,
Roaming round the garden.
-- Shiki
I came back,
Angry and offended;
The willow in the garden.
-- Ryota
After killing the spider,
A lonely
Cold night.
-- Shiki _________________ Time is nothing but a disquiet of the soul |
|
返回页首 |
|
|
Lake[Lake] Lake作品集 二品总督 (刚入二品,小心做人)
注册时间: 2006-10-10 帖子: 1341 来自: Sky Blue Water
|
发表于: 星期日 五月 25, 2008 9:56 pm 发表主题: |
|
|
Thanks for posting these great haikus.
It seems Everything is relative, nothing is absolute . To break the rules, first you need to know the rules. Abstract words can be used, but better to be used in a new way, in an effective way.
Interesting,
An autumn eve:
There is joy too
In loneliness.
-- Buson
tells me where fanfan's II comes from:
A waving hand --
There's hope also
In despair
--fanfan
From reading the haikus of the Japanese masters,
Ah, grief and sadness!
The fishing-line trembles
In the autumn breeze.
Peace and quiet:
Leaning on a stick,
Roaming round the garden.
I've learned there are poems they don't have to contain a contrast of images, or feelings... one image or feeling can be developed and heightened. Yeah, go break the rules! |
|
返回页首 |
|
|
fanfan[FFFFFF] fanfan作品集 四品府丞 (封疆大吏也!)
注册时间: 2007-12-27 帖子: 353 来自: Canada
|
发表于: 星期二 五月 27, 2008 8:45 am 发表主题: |
|
|
Lake 写到: |
Interesting,
An autumn eve:
There is joy too
In loneliness.
-- Buson
tells me where fanfan's II comes from:
A waving hand --
There's hope also
In despair
--fanfan
|
You don't need to ask ericcolou, who is not my literary or legal guardian.
In writing, there is an important feature of imitation that defies the charge of theft outright is allusion, i.e., an acknowledgment of source, as a way to pay literary homage to someone to whom one feels indebted. Without the reader's comprehending the writer's intention, an allusion becomes merely a decorative device.
I was really delighted when you found out the literary source for my haiku. Within no time, I was shocked by your covert accusation of my “theft” of Buson’s work. The literary technique I used to write my haiku is called “imitative-structural modes of allusion,” two of four modes of allusion well articulated in a typology developed by Earl Miner. The modes include the following:
"I. metaphoric allusion in which an echo of the previous work imports the tenor of the previous work to the new context;
2. imitative allusion in which a quotation of the exact language or representation of generic characteristics of the previous work creates an equivalence between the previous context of utterance and the new context;3. parodic allusion in which a quotation of the language or representation of generic characteristics of the previous work suggests a discrepancy between the previous context of utterance and the new context; and
4. structural allusion in which repetition of structural elements (e.g., recognition and reversal) of a previous work gives form to the new work by analogy to the previous work."
(Earl Miner. "Allusion." Princeton Encyclopedia of Poetry and Poetics. Ed. Alex Preminger. Princeton: Princeton UP, 1974.)
Surely, there are “rules” (by the way, I know these rules fully) to delineate the limits of the use of modes of allusion (LIMITS OF ALLUSION by Leddy Brit J; Aesthetics.1992; 32: 110-122).
Please read the books before you make a rush and tough judgment on the work of a beginner writer who has already suffered from The Anxiety of Influence (by the way, another good book. The Anxiety of Influence: A Theory of Poetry by Harold Bloom. It was the first in a series of books that advanced a new "revisionary" or antithetical approach to literary criticism). _________________ Don't imitate me;
it's as boring
as the two halves of a melon.
最后进行编辑的是 fanfan on 星期三 五月 28, 2008 9:17 am, 总计第 3 次编辑 |
|
返回页首 |
|
|
fanfan[FAFAFA] fanfan作品集 四品府丞 (封疆大吏也!)
注册时间: 2007-12-27 帖子: 353 来自: Canada
|
发表于: 星期二 五月 27, 2008 9:02 am 发表主题: |
|
|
Lake 写到: |
It seems Everything is relative, nothing is absolute . To break the rules, first you need to know the rules. Abstract words can be used, but better to be used in a new way, in an effective way.
|
It seems you just made an "absolutist" statement:Everything is relative, nothing is absolute .
Yes, I agree with your "rules." And I know fully well I write mediocre poems (sorry not judged by your "rules" but by my own literary taste) because I am just a beginner writer, a writer still stuck in the process of reading, learning (yes, I have no shame in stealing good ideas and techniques from the Masters), writing, and re-writing.
But, since you covertly accused me of the theft of his work, could you tell me how Buson (Yes, I know one of the greatest poets of the Edo Period) uses these abstract words in a new and effective way while I don't? _________________ Don't imitate me;
it's as boring
as the two halves of a melon.
最后进行编辑的是 fanfan on 星期二 五月 27, 2008 8:03 pm, 总计第 2 次编辑 |
|
返回页首 |
|
|
fanfan[FFFFFF] fanfan作品集 四品府丞 (封疆大吏也!)
注册时间: 2007-12-27 帖子: 353 来自: Canada
|
发表于: 星期二 五月 27, 2008 10:03 am 发表主题: |
|
|
This is my standard, which maybe never will be achieved in my life. (but, does that really matter to an inspired writer?)
You have been misled by your folly,
determined to follow the footsteps of Conrad
and Nabokov. You have forgotten
they were white Europeans.
Remember your yellow face
and your puny talent—unlikely
to make you a late bloomer.
Why believe you can write verse in English,
whose music is not natural to you?
-- Ha Jin, A Free Life _________________ Don't imitate me;
it's as boring
as the two halves of a melon. |
|
返回页首 |
|
|
Lake[Lake] Lake作品集 二品总督 (刚入二品,小心做人)
注册时间: 2006-10-10 帖子: 1341 来自: Sky Blue Water
|
发表于: 星期二 五月 27, 2008 2:12 pm 发表主题: |
|
|
My apologies if my words sound offensive to you.
We are all beginners of English here since we are all native Chinese speakers, I believe? So I think my comments are also at a beginner’s level. Take it or toss it at your own discretion. But hey, look, how much people have changed or rewritten their works after others’ comments. We learn from our reciprocal exchanges, don’t we?
引用: | You don't need to ask ericcolou, who is not my literary or legal guardian. |
I’m a bit confused; maybe it is due to my poor memory, but when and what I asked him?
引用: | I was shocked by your covert accusation of my “theft” of Buson’s work. |
Theft? Who said that? Sometimes I am notorious for my detailed reading due to the nature of my work. I couldn’t remember whose poem I once made comments on – something like this poem reminds me of 卞之淋的《斷章》, the author gladly admitted this is an imitation of that. Or you call it allusion. I must admit I do it too once in a while.
引用: | Please read the books before you make a rush and tough judgment |
Tough comment is harder to make than love-in comment. I don’t think I have to read books before I speak. If I have to finish reading all the poetry books before speaking, I’m afraid I have to remain silent this life. That’s miserable. Perhaps the ‘rush’ comment is not comprehensive, but most of the time it is the fresh reflection of reading a piece of work, don’t you agree? Though it may not read the writer 100% right, but it is the commenter’s true feeling.
When talking about abstract, I meant the use of ‘shattered/ruined dream’, isn’t it a bit overused? But it is just me, if others have no such problem it doesn’t matter. The quoted Buson’s haiku is a good one, so is your allusion. You don’t need me to explain since you fully worked on it.
Sorry for any irritation my comment has caused you. It is all opinions after all.
Best wishes! |
|
返回页首 |
|
|
ericcoliu[ericcoliu] ericcoliu作品集 二品总督 (刚入二品,小心做人)
注册时间: 2007-05-29 帖子: 1393 来自: GTA, Canada
|
发表于: 星期二 五月 27, 2008 7:54 pm 发表主题: |
|
|
Please take it easy and relax.
As a beginner writer who write[s] verse in English, whose music is not natural to me, I have no shame in writing mediocre haiku to pay my literary homage to Lake and fanfan, both of whom I feel indebted to and both of whom have made English Garden a good place to write and read online.
The thief
Left it behind –
Haiku on the table
Sorry, I forgot to mention one thing in advance: The literary technique I used to write my haiku is called “imitative-structural modes of allusion,” by which I wrote in a poetic language with no “abstract words” to contain no contrast of images, or feelings because, according to Lake’s rule, one image or feeling can be developed and heightened if one can write haiku in a new way, in an effective way.
Note:
All of italicized phrases and sentences are written or quoted by Lake and fanfan. _________________ Time is nothing but a disquiet of the soul |
|
返回页首 |
|
|
dundas[dundas] dundas作品集 五品知州 (再努力一把就是四品大员了!)
注册时间: 2008-02-23 帖子: 214
|
发表于: 星期三 五月 28, 2008 1:13 pm 发表主题: |
|
|
ericcoliu 写到: |
The thief
Left it behind –
Haiku on the table
Sorry, I forgot to mention one thing in advance: The literary technique I used to write my haiku is called “imitative-structural modes of allusion,” by which I wrote in a poetic language with no “abstract words” to contain no contrast of images, or feelings.
|
The thief
Left it behind --
The moon at the window.
-- Ryokan Taigu who spent much of his time writing poetry, calligraphy, and communing with nature and whose poetry is often very simple and inspired by nature.
In the haiku, Haiku is refered to a poetry book which is part of The Everyman's Library Pocket Poets series.
In addition to the "imitative-structural" modes of allusion, you, in my view, also employ the metaphoric mode of allusion to Ryokan's work; your haiku can functions as a metaphor for what we, surely including you and the reader, have missed out -- nature ("The moon at the window") and nature poetry ("Haiku on the table"). _________________ My throat knew thirst before the structure
Of skin and vein around the well |
|
返回页首 |
|
|
fanfan[FFFFFF] fanfan作品集 四品府丞 (封疆大吏也!)
注册时间: 2007-12-27 帖子: 353 来自: Canada
|
发表于: 星期三 五月 28, 2008 2:07 pm 发表主题: |
|
|
Without the reader's comprehending the writer's intention, an allusion becomes merely a decorative device.
Apparently, you have read the book. _________________ Don't imitate me;
it's as boring
as the two halves of a melon. |
|
返回页首 |
|
|
温暖的水獸[温暖的水獸] 温暖的水獸作品集 五品知州 (再努力一把就是四品大员了!)
注册时间: 2008-04-23 帖子: 153 来自: 水族箱
|
发表于: 星期四 五月 29, 2008 12:02 pm 发表主题: |
|
|
The revised version is more concrete.
[quote="fanfan"]
IV
In Wenchuan
We walk on the roof of hell
Gazing at the flattened dreams
引用: |
Too strong and sentimental words.
[quote="fanfan"]
Apparently, you have read the book. |
I have also read Haiku, a book which is carefully selected and beautifully translated by the haiku lovers to focus on the spirit, instead of "rules", of haiku. _________________ 舌頭那匹温暖的水獸 馴養地在小小的水族箱中 蠕動
那獸說:是的 我願意 |
|
返回页首 |
|
|
浴恩福[浴恩福] 浴恩福作品集 六品通判 (官儿做大了,保持廉洁哦)
注册时间: 2008-05-08 帖子: 123 来自: 多倫多
|
发表于: 星期四 五月 29, 2008 3:21 pm 发表主题: Re: Earthquake Haiku (Modern Haiku, revised) |
|
|
fanfan 写到: |
I
Amid the debris of ruined lives
The only moving thing
Was the bloodstained hand of Wenchuan
III
Life after the ruins --
A makeshift tent
On the parted ground
|
I think it would be better to switch "moving" and "thing."
"The only thing moving" is more poetic.
And I also think "parted ground" is better. _________________ 報三恩、耕三大福田 |
|
返回页首 |
|
|
fanfan[FAFAFA] fanfan作品集 四品府丞 (封疆大吏也!)
注册时间: 2007-12-27 帖子: 353 来自: Canada
|
发表于: 星期四 五月 29, 2008 8:04 pm 发表主题: |
|
|
温暖的水獸 写到: |
I have also read Haiku, a book which is carefully selected and beautifully translated by the haiku lovers to focus on the spirit, instead of "rules", of haiku. |
Yes, well-said.
The pioneering translator R. H. Blyth believed that the spirit of haiku is present in all great poetry; inspired by him, the editor of this volume, Peter Washington, has included lines from such poets as Wordsworth, Keats, Tennyson, Thoreau, and Hopkins, presented here in haiku form. The result is a collection as compact, dynamic, and scintillating as the form itself. _________________ Don't imitate me;
it's as boring
as the two halves of a melon. |
|
返回页首 |
|
|
fanfan[FFFFFF] fanfan作品集 四品府丞 (封疆大吏也!)
注册时间: 2007-12-27 帖子: 353 来自: Canada
|
发表于: 星期四 五月 29, 2008 8:05 pm 发表主题: Re: Earthquake Haiku (Modern Haiku, revised) |
|
|
浴恩福 写到: |
I think it would be better to switch "moving" and "thing."
"The only thing moving" is more poetic.
And I also think "parted ground" is better. |
Yes, thanks for your valuable suggestions. _________________ Don't imitate me;
it's as boring
as the two halves of a melon. |
|
返回页首 |
|
|
fanfan[FAFAFA] fanfan作品集 四品府丞 (封疆大吏也!)
注册时间: 2007-12-27 帖子: 353 来自: Canada
|
发表于: 星期五 五月 30, 2008 10:50 pm 发表主题: |
|
|
温暖的水獸 写到: |
fanfan 写到: |
IV
In Wenchuan
We walk on the roof of hell
Gazing at the flattened dreams
|
Too strong and sentimental words.
|
On second thought I decided that it would be better to keep the original line because at the moment the life in Wenchuan is still hellish. Nature’s anger manifests in many ways, but oftentimes the innocent have to bear the blunt of its fury. _________________ Don't imitate me;
it's as boring
as the two halves of a melon. |
|
返回页首 |
|
|
|
|
您不能发布新主题 您不能在这个论坛回复主题 您不能在这个论坛编辑自己的帖子 您不能在这个论坛删除自己的帖子 您不能在这个论坛发表投票
|
本论坛欢迎广大文学爱好者不拘一格地发表创作和评论.凡在网站发表的作品,即视为向《北美枫》丛书, 《诗歌榜》和《酷我电子杂志》投稿(暂无稿费, 请谅)。如果您的作品不想编入《北美枫》或《诗歌榜》或《酷我电子杂志》,请在发帖时注明。 作品版权归原作者.文责自负.作品的观点与<酷我-北美枫>网站无关.请勿用于商业,宗教和政治宣传.论坛上严禁人身攻击.管理员有权删除作品.
Powered by phpBB 2.0.8 © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group phpBB 简体中文界面由 iCy-fLaME 更新翻译
|