酷我-北美枫

[ericcoliu]

[[ericcoliu]]

[Lake]

A very sad news came to me and made me lose all my interest in this discussion. I may come back later when I can get over the shock. Out of courtesy, I’ll leave a few lines before taking my bereavement leave.

Syllable count – I never insist 17 is a must in haiku (everyone can see this in my own English Haiku). What I did in 汉俳 translation is that if I didn’t set a limit, the syllables can easily go over 17 and lines over 3. That’s what they were in my initial draft.

Punctuations – I thought I used punctuations properly as I saw fit.

The same number of English words to the same number of Chinese characters, and Bashō’s frog poem – if I remember correctly, there were discussions on these topics somewhere on this forum, be it your standard or not.

You can do better – I can’t agree more. That’s what I said in the previous post “there’s always something one is not happy with for various reasons.”

Last but not least, I’ve never claimed myself as a poet, a translator, a critic. Who I am, what I am in other’s eyes is not my concern.

I’ll post one more and then I’ll be off to mourn with my friends.

[[Lake]]

A very sad news came to me and made me lose all my interest in this discussion. I may come back later when I can get over the shock. Out of courtesy, I’ll leave a few lines before taking my bereavement leave.

Syllable count – I never insist 17 is a must in haiku (everyone can see this in my own English Haiku). What I did in 汉俳 translation is that if I didn’t set a limit, the syllables can easily go over 17 and lines over 3. That’s what they were in my initial draft.

Punctuations – I thought I used punctuations properly as I saw fit.

The same number of English words to the same number of Chinese characters, and Bashō’s frog poem – if I remember correctly, there were discussions on these topics somewhere on this forum, be it your standard or not.

You can do better – I can’t agree more. That’s what I said in the previous post “there’s always something one is not happy with for various reasons.”

Last but not least, I’ve never claimed myself as a poet, a translator, a critic. Who I am, what I am in other’s eyes is not my concern.

I’ll post one more and then I’ll be off to mourn with my friends.

[ericcoliu]

My condolences to you on your loss of a beloved friend.

博弈's view of line-length and syllables is impressive and in line with that of the mainstream Modern English Haiku movement.

There is no discussion about Basho’s frog haiku.

I hope our discussions would enrich our understanding of haiku rather than cause misunderstanding.

And my apologies if I offend you in any way.
_________________
Time is nothing but a disquiet of the soul

[[ericcoliu]]

My condolences to you on your loss of a beloved friend.

博弈's view of line-length and syllables is impressive and in line with that of the mainstream Modern English Haiku movement.

There is no discussion about Basho’s frog haiku.

I hope our discussions would enrich our understanding of haiku rather than cause misunderstanding.

And my apologies if I offend you in any way.
_________________
Time is nothing but a disquiet of the soul

[Lake]

It was not my intension to say anything more on this ‘frog’ poem since there’s a lengthy discussion on that and Mark and Kokho were challenging this poem with their own haiku. But you made it sound very serious (in your other post) that if I don’t answer your question I am not honest and honesty is what I regard as very important for a true man even though there are instances when I’m not honest. For example, when I feel moody one day, someone asks “Are you ok? Are you getting sick?” I’ll say “Yes, I don’t feel well today.”

[[Lake]]

It was not my intension to say anything more on this ‘frog’ poem since there’s a lengthy discussion on that and Mark and Kokho were challenging this poem with their own haiku. But you made it sound very serious (in your other post) that if I don’t answer your question I am not honest and honesty is what I regard as very important for a true man even though there are instances when I’m not honest. For example, when I feel moody one day, someone asks “Are you ok? Are you getting sick?” I’ll say “Yes, I don’t feel well today.”

[Lake]

Whether one writes good poems or not, there's nothing to do with honesty; whether one has more knowledge than others, there's nothing to do with honesty; whether one understands something differently than others, there's nothing to do with honesty.


That said, I’ll give it a go. I’m honest to show my ignorance of animal ecology. So here is a novice question to your honesty: what makes you judge a “frog” is a season word while a “toad” is not? Don’t they both hibernate in winter and wake up in spring? Or did I miss anything?


The reasons I am not in favor of toad are, to my shallow observation, it might be a late spring or summer seasonal word; it lives more on dry area than its close relative frog that lives more in water or near water source; it has shorter legs than frog that jumps high and swims fast; its color is most often brown while frog is green, a spring color. Besides, because of its bumpy, rough skin, this phrase comes into my mind “癞蛤蟆想吃天鹅肉” - a derogatory image to most Chinese people, not sure if it's true to Japanese.


I'm a person of no titles, and it is just one person's take; so anyone can just laugh it off, I won't get offended.

[[Lake]]

Whether one writes good poems or not, there's nothing to do with honesty; whether one has more knowledge than others, there's nothing to do with honesty; whether one understands something differently than others, there's nothing to do with honesty.


That said, I’ll give it a go. I’m honest to show my ignorance of animal ecology. So here is a novice question to your honesty: what makes you judge a “frog” is a season word while a “toad” is not? Don’t they both hibernate in winter and wake up in spring? Or did I miss anything?


The reasons I am not in favor of toad are, to my shallow observation, it might be a late spring or summer seasonal word; it lives more on dry area than its close relative frog that lives more in water or near water source; it has shorter legs than frog that jumps high and swims fast; its color is most often brown while frog is green, a spring color. Besides, because of its bumpy, rough skin, this phrase comes into my mind “癞蛤蟆想吃天鹅肉” - a derogatory image to most Chinese people, not sure if it's true to Japanese.


I'm a person of no titles, and it is just one person's take; so anyone can just laugh it off, I won't get offended.

[ericcoliu]

[[ericcoliu]]

[Lake]

Unless I have anything new to say, I don't want to repeat others’ words. So I’ll copy an article by 林林. Another version of the translation by him (（芭蕉原文）：古池や蛙飞び込む水の音 ) is 古池塘呀，青蛙跳入水声响.



寂寞里,古池塘,
青蛙跳入水声响。
——(日)松尾芭蕉/林林译

这是日本著名俳句诗人松尾芭蕉(1644～1694) 俳句的代表作。俳句是日本传统诗歌形式中的一种短诗,也是世界上最短的格律诗之一。它以极其短小的形式表现作者刹那间的感受, 多用比喻、象征等手法, 语言 含蓄、隽永、简练, 便于记忆和流传。俳句作为一种独立的诗体,形成于十五世纪。原称“俳谐”,是一种以表现市民生活为主的诙谐诗。俳圣松尾芭蕉把 它从诙谐提升到真挚,并引向抒情诗的意境,奠定了它在日本文学史上的地位。俳句有两个最基本的特点。第一,每首俳句都是三行十七个音节,第一行五个音节, 第二行七个音节,第三行五个音节,即构成“五、七、五”的格式,而不押脚韵。第二, 每首俳句都必须有而且只能有一个“季题”。所谓“季题”,又称“季 语”,即与四季有关的自然现象或人事现象。它包括两个方面。一是自然现象,就是用与春夏秋冬四季有关的风花雪月、鸟兽虫鱼、花卉草木等为标志和暗示,使读 者一看即知该俳句所吟咏的是四季中的那个特定季节的事物。二是社会现象, 即以宗教、习俗、人事 (包括节日、忌日、纪念) 等来暗示一年四季中的一个特定季 节。


这首俳句是松尾芭蕉最著名的作品,也是“蕉风”(即“芭蕉风格”的简称,其特点是:朴素而严谨,“诙谐达到真诚”,具有闲寂、幽雅、余情、纤细的美,悲中有喜、喜中有悲、雅俗浑然融合的意蕴,含蓄隽永的语言)的代表作。日本学者高滨虚子在《俳句的理解与欣赏》中介绍道:“本诗是芭蕉俳风新纪元创立的一大标志。同以往滑稽洒落的俳句不同, 此句乃如实描绘实情实景, 有顿悟之境。其日芭蕉独居涤川草庵时,听到庭中古池传来水声。那声音正是青蛙跳入水中造成的。因为周围极其寂静,这水声也格外地清亮。在这首俳句中,芭蕉悟到了俳道的生命,不在于滑稽和洒落,而在于这样一种闲寂之处。”


这首俳句的特点在于外表平淡而内蕴深厚,形式短小而余味无穷。静谧的古池塘边, 万籁俱寂, 一切似乎凝然不动。忽然,传来一只青蛙跃入水中的声音。全诗到此戛然而止, 似乎一切都已说完, 又似乎一切都未说完。这首俳句虽然在形式上完结 了,可在读者的心理上并没有完结,它永远在向读者述说着什么。这种述说, 细加分析, 包括以下几个方面的“余味”。第一,听觉余味。青蛙跳入池塘, 其跃水之 声是“扑通”、“啪叽”还是其他声音? 引人推想。第二,视觉余味。俗话说“一石激起千层浪”。青蛙跳入池塘后, 池水泛起由小到大一圈圈的涟漪, 这圈圈涟漪 一层层扩展又消逝, 久久地荡漾在读者的眼前, 让人遐想。第三,意义余味。英国诗人布莱克有诗云:“一颗沙里看出一个世界,/一朵野花里一个天堂,/把无限 放在你手掌上,/永恒在一刹那里收藏。”(梁宗岱译)生动地表现了在艺术家灵感迸发的瞬间,理性主义者、机械论者们执意严格精确区分的沙粒与世界、野花与 天堂、有限与无限、刹那与永恒进入了一个无差别的契合境界,世界恢复了整一,人性恢复了和谐。芭蕉这首俳句与此有类似之处, 但又独具特色。


首先,俳句表现了东方人特有的那种在闲静中体悟生命活力从而“顺随造化”、“回归造化” 的思想。古池塘四 周万籁俱寂,而池塘的水面一片平和,更增添了一种幽寂的气息。在这古老的寂静中, 只有心境极其清幽、极其闲逸的人, 才能听到青蛙猝然跳入水中发出的虽清晰 却微小的响声。俳句一方面以蛙入池塘之声衬托了心灵的清幽闲逸,另一方面更以春天苏醒的青蛙的跳跃声,在幽静安恬的气氛中展示了一种富有生命觉醒和冲动的 充满生机的春之气息。而水声过后,古池塘的 水面又恢复了宁静。在这样一个神妙的瞬间,动与静达到了完美的结合——表面上是无穷无尽的幽静,内里却蕴藏着大自然的生命律动和大自然的无限奥妙,以及诗 人内心的无比激情,余韵悠悠,味之无尽。在诗人仿佛不动声色、信口道来的轻松自然中,又体现了东方人特有的那种“顺随造化”、“回归造化”的思想——造物 无言,万物适时而动,但终归要回归造化,一切尽可在幽寂闲逸中顺随造化,融入自然。


其次,这首俳句体现了禅宗的一些哲理。禅宗是极东方化的一种宗教,它有一个“梵我合一”的世界观理论,一方面强调世界本“空”,一方面又重视在“空”的世 界里,体验并捕捉活跃的生命,并使个体生命回归永恒的实在,达到“梵我合一”。为达到“梵我合一”的境界,禅宗强调通过个体的直觉体验——顿悟,通过“青 青翠竹,尽是法身;郁郁黄花,无非般若”的平凡现象世界,去整体把握存在的本源——表现为瞬间的永恒,从而进入一个梵我同一、物己双忘、宇宙与心灵融合一 体的奇妙又美丽、愉快而神秘的精神境界。这首俳句正是通过古池塘、青蛙入水、水声这些平凡的现象,表现了诗人对宇宙真理——“梵我合一”境界的直观表现与把握。一片寂静的古池塘,凝结着神秘、幽浮的“过去”,而冬眠醒来的青蛙,则象征着生机勃勃的“现在”,在青蛙跃入水中发出声响的一刹那间,“过去”与“现在”在人的直觉顿悟中倏然融合一体,而水声及层层荡漾的涟漪,则向茫茫的未来无限延伸着。这样,芭蕉通过青蛙入水这一意象,直觉地表现了时间的绝对同一——过去、现在、未来在一个神秘的瞬间统一起来,弥漫到禅宗那无差别的“空”的境界;冬眠醒来的青蛙象征着生命的复苏,古池塘里的水是生命的本源,生命觉醒的青蛙跳入池中,则是个体生命回归永恒实在并与之合一的象征。就这样,芭蕉在这首短短的仅十七个音节的俳句里,生动又深刻地以直觉顿悟的方式表现了禅宗的理想境界,展示了个体生命与宇宙的哲理关系。


本诗的艺术特点有二。一是即兴、自然。这种诗往往是“文章本天成,妙手偶得之”,经过长期的思考,长久的酝酿,在一个神奇的瞬间,在某一外物的触发下,如 牛顿见苹果落地而发现万有引力一般,诗人豁然开朗,不假思索地即兴挥洒出这仿佛信手拈来的神来之笔(我国晋代诗人谢灵运《登池上楼》中的“池塘生春草,园 柳变鸣禽”也是如此)。二是以动写静。诗人写静的方法,主要有两种。一种是以静写静,如白居易《琵琶行》中的“此时无声胜有声”。一种是以动写静,如我国 六朝诗人王籍《入若耶溪》中的“蝉噪林逾静,鸟鸣山更幽”。松尾芭蕉擅 长以动写静,他的另一首著名俳句“静寂,蝉声入岩石”(林林译)以主观感受夸张地写出了极端的寂静——竟使人感到蝉声渗入了岩石。这首俳句也不例外, 一九 一六年印度诗人泰戈尔访问日本时读到它, 对之赞不绝口:“够了, 再多余的诗句没有必要了。日本读者的心灵仿佛是长眼睛似的。古老而陈旧的水池是被人遗忘 的、宁静而黝黑的。一只青蛙跳入水里的声音, 清晰可闻, 可见水池是多么的幽静!”这首俳句影响极大,以致二百余年后的今天,美洲俳句社的刊物还以《蛙池》 为刊名。


林林：生于福建，30 年代北平中国大学毕业后，到日本东京留学，参加左联东京分盟，当干事会成员，学习日本文学。 建国后，多做些中日文化交流工作。试译《日本古典俳句选》，出版与日本文艺家往来散文集《扶桑续集》，并著短歌、汉俳《剪云集》等书。


Edited: I hope this article could answer some of your questions if not all.

[[Lake]]

Unless I have anything new to say, I don't want to repeat others’ words. So I’ll copy an article by 林林. Another version of the translation by him (（芭蕉原文）：古池や蛙飞び込む水の音 ) is 古池塘呀，青蛙跳入水声响.



寂寞里,古池塘,
青蛙跳入水声响。
——(日)松尾芭蕉/林林译

这是日本著名俳句诗人松尾芭蕉(1644～1694) 俳句的代表作。俳句是日本传统诗歌形式中的一种短诗,也是世界上最短的格律诗之一。它以极其短小的形式表现作者刹那间的感受, 多用比喻、象征等手法, 语言 含蓄、隽永、简练, 便于记忆和流传。俳句作为一种独立的诗体,形成于十五世纪。原称“俳谐”,是一种以表现市民生活为主的诙谐诗。俳圣松尾芭蕉把 它从诙谐提升到真挚,并引向抒情诗的意境,奠定了它在日本文学史上的地位。俳句有两个最基本的特点。第一,每首俳句都是三行十七个音节,第一行五个音节, 第二行七个音节,第三行五个音节,即构成“五、七、五”的格式,而不押脚韵。第二, 每首俳句都必须有而且只能有一个“季题”。所谓“季题”,又称“季 语”,即与四季有关的自然现象或人事现象。它包括两个方面。一是自然现象,就是用与春夏秋冬四季有关的风花雪月、鸟兽虫鱼、花卉草木等为标志和暗示,使读 者一看即知该俳句所吟咏的是四季中的那个特定季节的事物。二是社会现象, 即以宗教、习俗、人事 (包括节日、忌日、纪念) 等来暗示一年四季中的一个特定季 节。


这首俳句是松尾芭蕉最著名的作品,也是“蕉风”(即“芭蕉风格”的简称,其特点是:朴素而严谨,“诙谐达到真诚”,具有闲寂、幽雅、余情、纤细的美,悲中有喜、喜中有悲、雅俗浑然融合的意蕴,含蓄隽永的语言)的代表作。日本学者高滨虚子在《俳句的理解与欣赏》中介绍道:“本诗是芭蕉俳风新纪元创立的一大标志。同以往滑稽洒落的俳句不同, 此句乃如实描绘实情实景, 有顿悟之境。其日芭蕉独居涤川草庵时,听到庭中古池传来水声。那声音正是青蛙跳入水中造成的。因为周围极其寂静,这水声也格外地清亮。在这首俳句中,芭蕉悟到了俳道的生命,不在于滑稽和洒落,而在于这样一种闲寂之处。”


这首俳句的特点在于外表平淡而内蕴深厚,形式短小而余味无穷。静谧的古池塘边, 万籁俱寂, 一切似乎凝然不动。忽然,传来一只青蛙跃入水中的声音。全诗到此戛然而止, 似乎一切都已说完, 又似乎一切都未说完。这首俳句虽然在形式上完结 了,可在读者的心理上并没有完结,它永远在向读者述说着什么。这种述说, 细加分析, 包括以下几个方面的“余味”。第一,听觉余味。青蛙跳入池塘, 其跃水之 声是“扑通”、“啪叽”还是其他声音? 引人推想。第二,视觉余味。俗话说“一石激起千层浪”。青蛙跳入池塘后, 池水泛起由小到大一圈圈的涟漪, 这圈圈涟漪 一层层扩展又消逝, 久久地荡漾在读者的眼前, 让人遐想。第三,意义余味。英国诗人布莱克有诗云:“一颗沙里看出一个世界,/一朵野花里一个天堂,/把无限 放在你手掌上,/永恒在一刹那里收藏。”(梁宗岱译)生动地表现了在艺术家灵感迸发的瞬间,理性主义者、机械论者们执意严格精确区分的沙粒与世界、野花与 天堂、有限与无限、刹那与永恒进入了一个无差别的契合境界,世界恢复了整一,人性恢复了和谐。芭蕉这首俳句与此有类似之处, 但又独具特色。


首先,俳句表现了东方人特有的那种在闲静中体悟生命活力从而“顺随造化”、“回归造化” 的思想。古池塘四 周万籁俱寂,而池塘的水面一片平和,更增添了一种幽寂的气息。在这古老的寂静中, 只有心境极其清幽、极其闲逸的人, 才能听到青蛙猝然跳入水中发出的虽清晰 却微小的响声。俳句一方面以蛙入池塘之声衬托了心灵的清幽闲逸,另一方面更以春天苏醒的青蛙的跳跃声,在幽静安恬的气氛中展示了一种富有生命觉醒和冲动的 充满生机的春之气息。而水声过后,古池塘的 水面又恢复了宁静。在这样一个神妙的瞬间,动与静达到了完美的结合——表面上是无穷无尽的幽静,内里却蕴藏着大自然的生命律动和大自然的无限奥妙,以及诗 人内心的无比激情,余韵悠悠,味之无尽。在诗人仿佛不动声色、信口道来的轻松自然中,又体现了东方人特有的那种“顺随造化”、“回归造化”的思想——造物 无言,万物适时而动,但终归要回归造化,一切尽可在幽寂闲逸中顺随造化,融入自然。


其次,这首俳句体现了禅宗的一些哲理。禅宗是极东方化的一种宗教,它有一个“梵我合一”的世界观理论,一方面强调世界本“空”,一方面又重视在“空”的世 界里,体验并捕捉活跃的生命,并使个体生命回归永恒的实在,达到“梵我合一”。为达到“梵我合一”的境界,禅宗强调通过个体的直觉体验——顿悟,通过“青 青翠竹,尽是法身;郁郁黄花,无非般若”的平凡现象世界,去整体把握存在的本源——表现为瞬间的永恒,从而进入一个梵我同一、物己双忘、宇宙与心灵融合一 体的奇妙又美丽、愉快而神秘的精神境界。这首俳句正是通过古池塘、青蛙入水、水声这些平凡的现象,表现了诗人对宇宙真理——“梵我合一”境界的直观表现与把握。一片寂静的古池塘,凝结着神秘、幽浮的“过去”,而冬眠醒来的青蛙,则象征着生机勃勃的“现在”,在青蛙跃入水中发出声响的一刹那间,“过去”与“现在”在人的直觉顿悟中倏然融合一体,而水声及层层荡漾的涟漪,则向茫茫的未来无限延伸着。这样,芭蕉通过青蛙入水这一意象,直觉地表现了时间的绝对同一——过去、现在、未来在一个神秘的瞬间统一起来,弥漫到禅宗那无差别的“空”的境界;冬眠醒来的青蛙象征着生命的复苏,古池塘里的水是生命的本源,生命觉醒的青蛙跳入池中,则是个体生命回归永恒实在并与之合一的象征。就这样,芭蕉在这首短短的仅十七个音节的俳句里,生动又深刻地以直觉顿悟的方式表现了禅宗的理想境界,展示了个体生命与宇宙的哲理关系。


本诗的艺术特点有二。一是即兴、自然。这种诗往往是“文章本天成,妙手偶得之”,经过长期的思考,长久的酝酿,在一个神奇的瞬间,在某一外物的触发下,如 牛顿见苹果落地而发现万有引力一般,诗人豁然开朗,不假思索地即兴挥洒出这仿佛信手拈来的神来之笔(我国晋代诗人谢灵运《登池上楼》中的“池塘生春草,园 柳变鸣禽”也是如此)。二是以动写静。诗人写静的方法,主要有两种。一种是以静写静,如白居易《琵琶行》中的“此时无声胜有声”。一种是以动写静,如我国 六朝诗人王籍《入若耶溪》中的“蝉噪林逾静,鸟鸣山更幽”。松尾芭蕉擅 长以动写静,他的另一首著名俳句“静寂,蝉声入岩石”(林林译)以主观感受夸张地写出了极端的寂静——竟使人感到蝉声渗入了岩石。这首俳句也不例外, 一九 一六年印度诗人泰戈尔访问日本时读到它, 对之赞不绝口:“够了, 再多余的诗句没有必要了。日本读者的心灵仿佛是长眼睛似的。古老而陈旧的水池是被人遗忘 的、宁静而黝黑的。一只青蛙跳入水里的声音, 清晰可闻, 可见水池是多么的幽静!”这首俳句影响极大,以致二百余年后的今天,美洲俳句社的刊物还以《蛙池》 为刊名。


林林：生于福建，30 年代北平中国大学毕业后，到日本东京留学，参加左联东京分盟，当干事会成员，学习日本文学。 建国后，多做些中日文化交流工作。试译《日本古典俳句选》，出版与日本文艺家往来散文集《扶桑续集》，并著短歌、汉俳《剪云集》等书。


Edited: I hope this article could answer some of your questions if not all.

[ericcoliu]

Be honest with me, have you read through my posts and related discussions?

I read and thought through every and each one of your posts and answered your challenging questions as best as I could.

This is the way to show one’s respect to his/her discussant.


If not, what is the point of discussing writing haiku with me?


Do you think your post answers the following questions:

[[ericcoliu]]

Be honest with me, have you read through my posts and related discussions?

I read and thought through every and each one of your posts and answered your challenging questions as best as I could.

This is the way to show one’s respect to his/her discussant.


If not, what is the point of discussing writing haiku with me?


Do you think your post answers the following questions:

[Lake]

[[Lake]]

[Lake]

Eric,

I see you're irritated and I'm not relaxed either. As you say you are in pursuit of knowledge, so why don't we sit down and have a cup of tea? No one can write good haiku in such a mood, right?

I see your point re punctuation and capitalization as clearly as you see how my haiku have been written. I write haiku in both capital and small letters and with or without punctuations depending on my mood when they are written. Though personally, I prefer small letters (I'm sure you can tell from my haiku). As for punctuation, I'm inclined to use as little as possible.

One reason I quoted the following message from Wikipedia

[[Lake]]

Eric,

I see you're irritated and I'm not relaxed either. As you say you are in pursuit of knowledge, so why don't we sit down and have a cup of tea? No one can write good haiku in such a mood, right?

I see your point re punctuation and capitalization as clearly as you see how my haiku have been written. I write haiku in both capital and small letters and with or without punctuations depending on my mood when they are written. Though personally, I prefer small letters (I'm sure you can tell from my haiku). As for punctuation, I'm inclined to use as little as possible.

One reason I quoted the following message from Wikipedia